<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
	xmlns:media="http://search.yahoo.com/mrss/"
		>
<channel>
	<title>Comments for Moses Lake</title>
	<atom:link href="http://ethanolfuel.wordpress.com/comments/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://ethanolfuel.wordpress.com</link>
	<description>Just another WordPress.com weblog</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Wed, 10 Sep 2008 04:12:44 +0000</lastBuildDate>
	<generator>http://wordpress.com/</generator>
	<sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency>
		<item>
		<title>Comment on Bombs in Grant County by Tameshigiri (試し斬り), the Art of Cutting &#171; Mass</title>
		<link>http://ethanolfuel.wordpress.com/2008/08/21/bombs-in-grant-county/#comment-18</link>
		<dc:creator>Tameshigiri (試し斬り), the Art of Cutting &#171; Mass</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Sep 2008 04:12:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ethanolfuel.wordpress.com/?p=12#comment-18</guid>
		<description>[...] danger, and age needs to keep them from getting hurt. Surely practicing with swords is safer than playing with gunpowder, and a lot of other things, and a good use of youthful [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] danger, and age needs to keep them from getting hurt. Surely practicing with swords is safer than playing with gunpowder, and a lot of other things, and a good use of youthful [...]</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>Comment on Water, Assault, and Sudoku at Moses Lake by Hudson</title>
		<link>http://ethanolfuel.wordpress.com/2008/05/01/water-assault-and-sudoku-at-moses-lake/#comment-16</link>
		<dc:creator>Hudson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 29 Jun 2008 19:09:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ethanolfuel.wordpress.com/?p=7#comment-16</guid>
		<description>I was reading Scientific American the other day (forgive me!), and I came across an environmental issues article that seemed to promote more openness in dealing with environmental issues. The writers recognize how horribly impractical the common, light-foot, approach is, and pointed out how little we are accomplishing. I was surprised to see the article published in a popular magazine.

A glimmer of hope, perhaps?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I was reading Scientific American the other day (forgive me!), and I came across an environmental issues article that seemed to promote more openness in dealing with environmental issues. The writers recognize how horribly impractical the common, light-foot, approach is, and pointed out how little we are accomplishing. I was surprised to see the article published in a popular magazine.</p>
<p>A glimmer of hope, perhaps?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>Comment on Water, Assault, and Sudoku at Moses Lake by carlbrannen</title>
		<link>http://ethanolfuel.wordpress.com/2008/05/01/water-assault-and-sudoku-at-moses-lake/#comment-15</link>
		<dc:creator>carlbrannen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Jun 2008 06:52:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ethanolfuel.wordpress.com/?p=7#comment-15</guid>
		<description>Yet more assaults and worse in Grant County: &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.columbiabasinherald.com/articles/2008/06/18/news/news04.txt&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;man sentenced for raping his mother&lt;/a&gt;, and &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.columbiabasinherald.com/articles/2008/06/17/news/news02.txt&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;traffic dispute&lt;/a&gt; leads 42-year-old woman to beat up 21-year-old man and his 18-year-old female friend.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yet more assaults and worse in Grant County: <a href="http://www.columbiabasinherald.com/articles/2008/06/18/news/news04.txt" rel="nofollow">man sentenced for raping his mother</a>, and <a href="http://www.columbiabasinherald.com/articles/2008/06/17/news/news02.txt" rel="nofollow">traffic dispute</a> leads 42-year-old woman to beat up 21-year-old man and his 18-year-old female friend.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>Comment on Water, Assault, and Sudoku at Moses Lake by carlbrannen</title>
		<link>http://ethanolfuel.wordpress.com/2008/05/01/water-assault-and-sudoku-at-moses-lake/#comment-14</link>
		<dc:creator>carlbrannen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Jun 2008 20:02:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ethanolfuel.wordpress.com/?p=7#comment-14</guid>
		<description>I see I didn&#039;t reference the figure for water requirements of an ethanol plant. Here&#039;s some &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.agobservatory.org/library.cfm?refid=89449&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;reputable figures from an agricultural college group worried about ethanol water consumption&lt;/a&gt;, see figure 1.

Their water usage (5 gallons per gallon ethanol) is higher than ours (3) because midwest US water is generally not as pure as Columbia river water. The largest use of water in an ethanol plant is used for cooling. It is evaporated. This is what creates the clouds coming out of a plant.

The water that does not evaporate becomes saltier. If it gets too salty, then it clogs your pipes. This limits how many times you can run it through an evaporation cycle, and so places that have nasty water use more of it.

In addition, some plants recycle their waste water, others do not. Recycling is accomplished by making it into a syrupy concentrate plus distilled water using an &quot;evaporator&quot;. Not doing this will increase a plant&#039;s water consumption maybe 25%. Of course this works better if your plant&#039;s water is more pure. In general, the more modern a plant, the less water it uses.

Most of the people fighting against ethanol either know nothing about it. The backbone of the fight is by people who want to eliminate all &quot;factory farming&quot;. For them, the concept of the world being covered by farms growing fuels is a nightmare of wall to wall industrialization.

Their preferred solution is to reduce consumption. Drive a bicycle. Live with a smaller footprint. They can&#039;t imagine that any solution could possibly involve a huge machine built from glistening stainless steel and will fight against it. And getting back to water usage, here&#039;s some photos of our &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.liquacorp.com/photoevaporation.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;beautiful stainless steel evaporator (water distillation / purifier) being assembled.&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I see I didn&#8217;t reference the figure for water requirements of an ethanol plant. Here&#8217;s some <a href="http://www.agobservatory.org/library.cfm?refid=89449" rel="nofollow">reputable figures from an agricultural college group worried about ethanol water consumption</a>, see figure 1.</p>
<p>Their water usage (5 gallons per gallon ethanol) is higher than ours (3) because midwest US water is generally not as pure as Columbia river water. The largest use of water in an ethanol plant is used for cooling. It is evaporated. This is what creates the clouds coming out of a plant.</p>
<p>The water that does not evaporate becomes saltier. If it gets too salty, then it clogs your pipes. This limits how many times you can run it through an evaporation cycle, and so places that have nasty water use more of it.</p>
<p>In addition, some plants recycle their waste water, others do not. Recycling is accomplished by making it into a syrupy concentrate plus distilled water using an &#8220;evaporator&#8221;. Not doing this will increase a plant&#8217;s water consumption maybe 25%. Of course this works better if your plant&#8217;s water is more pure. In general, the more modern a plant, the less water it uses.</p>
<p>Most of the people fighting against ethanol either know nothing about it. The backbone of the fight is by people who want to eliminate all &#8220;factory farming&#8221;. For them, the concept of the world being covered by farms growing fuels is a nightmare of wall to wall industrialization.</p>
<p>Their preferred solution is to reduce consumption. Drive a bicycle. Live with a smaller footprint. They can&#8217;t imagine that any solution could possibly involve a huge machine built from glistening stainless steel and will fight against it. And getting back to water usage, here&#8217;s some photos of our <a href="http://www.liquacorp.com/photoevaporation.html" rel="nofollow">beautiful stainless steel evaporator (water distillation / purifier) being assembled.</a></p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>Comment on Water, Assault, and Sudoku at Moses Lake by Hudson</title>
		<link>http://ethanolfuel.wordpress.com/2008/05/01/water-assault-and-sudoku-at-moses-lake/#comment-13</link>
		<dc:creator>Hudson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Jun 2008 14:41:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ethanolfuel.wordpress.com/?p=7#comment-13</guid>
		<description>The figures on water in ethanol production shocked me. On what other grounds can &quot;they&quot; claim mass ethanol production to be ecologically unsound. 

As a side note: This part of your article reminded me of a short story by Isaac Asimov titled /The Martian Way/. You should look it up if you haven&#039;t read it already--and if you have a taste for Sci-Fi. He wrote it quite a while back, so the science is dated. Still, a good story.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The figures on water in ethanol production shocked me. On what other grounds can &#8220;they&#8221; claim mass ethanol production to be ecologically unsound. </p>
<p>As a side note: This part of your article reminded me of a short story by Isaac Asimov titled /The Martian Way/. You should look it up if you haven&#8217;t read it already&#8211;and if you have a taste for Sci-Fi. He wrote it quite a while back, so the science is dated. Still, a good story.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>Comment on Pimental and Corn Ethanol Fuel by carlbrannen</title>
		<link>http://ethanolfuel.wordpress.com/2008/04/25/pimental-and-corn-ethanol-fuel/#comment-11</link>
		<dc:creator>carlbrannen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 18 May 2008 20:52:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ethanolfuel.wordpress.com/?p=3#comment-11</guid>
		<description>Mark, there are other articles in competition with Pimental that say the opposite. For example, fertilizer is a tiny percentage of the farm budget how can it possibly be the target of significant subsidies? What are these fertilizer subsidies? And how much do the fertilizer companies pay in taxes? Shouldn&#039;t that be subtracted from the subsidy?

And as you hinted, counting things up in BTUs is silly because you can&#039;t put corn or natural gas into your car.

For our plant, Pimental&#039;s calculations do not apply in many ways. First, our plant is being built from used industrial equipment. Therefore it&#039;s cost, both in dollars and to the environment, is much lower than a plant built from all new steel. Second, we are permitted to run on barley as well as corn. Barley is a dry land crop that can be grown on idle farm land all over Washington State without irrigation. So the costs of fertilizer and water do not necessarily enter into the cost of the feedstock of our plant.

Perhaps the best argument against the idea that the only way that ethanol pays its way is through US agricultural subsidies is to note that corn is turned into ethanol in many of the other countries that produce significant amounts of corn: &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.earth-policy.org/Updates/2005/Update49_data.htm&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Canada, China, South Africa, and France&lt;/a&gt;. Are US corn subsidies being copied all over the world? And in Europe, various other grains are turned into ethanol for fuel, barley, wheat, and rye as well as sugar beets (which we are considering, but to use it, we&#039;d have to get a modification of our air and water ecology permits).

No. It&#039;s very simple, really. As corn prices stay relatively low (i.e. under $6 per bushel), and oil prices are relatively high (i.e. over $100 per barrel) turning corn into fuel is quite profitable.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mark, there are other articles in competition with Pimental that say the opposite. For example, fertilizer is a tiny percentage of the farm budget how can it possibly be the target of significant subsidies? What are these fertilizer subsidies? And how much do the fertilizer companies pay in taxes? Shouldn&#8217;t that be subtracted from the subsidy?</p>
<p>And as you hinted, counting things up in BTUs is silly because you can&#8217;t put corn or natural gas into your car.</p>
<p>For our plant, Pimental&#8217;s calculations do not apply in many ways. First, our plant is being built from used industrial equipment. Therefore it&#8217;s cost, both in dollars and to the environment, is much lower than a plant built from all new steel. Second, we are permitted to run on barley as well as corn. Barley is a dry land crop that can be grown on idle farm land all over Washington State without irrigation. So the costs of fertilizer and water do not necessarily enter into the cost of the feedstock of our plant.</p>
<p>Perhaps the best argument against the idea that the only way that ethanol pays its way is through US agricultural subsidies is to note that corn is turned into ethanol in many of the other countries that produce significant amounts of corn: <a href="http://www.earth-policy.org/Updates/2005/Update49_data.htm" rel="nofollow">Canada, China, South Africa, and France</a>. Are US corn subsidies being copied all over the world? And in Europe, various other grains are turned into ethanol for fuel, barley, wheat, and rye as well as sugar beets (which we are considering, but to use it, we&#8217;d have to get a modification of our air and water ecology permits).</p>
<p>No. It&#8217;s very simple, really. As corn prices stay relatively low (i.e. under $6 per bushel), and oil prices are relatively high (i.e. over $100 per barrel) turning corn into fuel is quite profitable.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>Comment on Pimental and Corn Ethanol Fuel by mark</title>
		<link>http://ethanolfuel.wordpress.com/2008/04/25/pimental-and-corn-ethanol-fuel/#comment-10</link>
		<dc:creator>mark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 18 May 2008 08:44:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ethanolfuel.wordpress.com/?p=3#comment-10</guid>
		<description>that seems like an ignorant response: &#039;just compare their prices&#039;.    this is why people wonder about subsidies.   if you need alot of oil for fuel and fertilizer and transportation to produce the corn, which is paid for by subsidies, then ethanol may not pay for itself unless these hidden costs are subsidized.   

the padzyk (sic) (stanford)/pimental &#039;thermodynamic&#039; fuel cycle articles are not convincing  (since they are mostly cluttered with irrelevant discussions (which look technical) but they raise these points; science magazine had a better review which concluded the efficiency was about 1.3 gallons ethanol for 1 gallon oil (or maybe other fuels). 

one can also get into global warming.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>that seems like an ignorant response: &#8216;just compare their prices&#8217;.    this is why people wonder about subsidies.   if you need alot of oil for fuel and fertilizer and transportation to produce the corn, which is paid for by subsidies, then ethanol may not pay for itself unless these hidden costs are subsidized.   </p>
<p>the padzyk (sic) (stanford)/pimental &#8216;thermodynamic&#8217; fuel cycle articles are not convincing  (since they are mostly cluttered with irrelevant discussions (which look technical) but they raise these points; science magazine had a better review which concluded the efficiency was about 1.3 gallons ethanol for 1 gallon oil (or maybe other fuels). </p>
<p>one can also get into global warming.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>Comment on Pimental and Corn Ethanol Fuel by carlbrannen</title>
		<link>http://ethanolfuel.wordpress.com/2008/04/25/pimental-and-corn-ethanol-fuel/#comment-3</link>
		<dc:creator>carlbrannen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 May 2008 04:46:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ethanolfuel.wordpress.com/?p=3#comment-3</guid>
		<description>Paul,

Different methods of storing energy have different economic values so counting BTUs is an amusement for academics but not of any real use.

Ethanol is a very valuable fuel because it can be used in a standard gasoline internal combustion machine. The same cannot be said of natural gas nor electricity, which are the two major energy inputs of an ethanol plant, nor can it even be said of diesel used on farms, or the electricity used to pump water for irrigation.

To see if there is economic value in converting corn to ethanol is easy. Just compare their prices.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Paul,</p>
<p>Different methods of storing energy have different economic values so counting BTUs is an amusement for academics but not of any real use.</p>
<p>Ethanol is a very valuable fuel because it can be used in a standard gasoline internal combustion machine. The same cannot be said of natural gas nor electricity, which are the two major energy inputs of an ethanol plant, nor can it even be said of diesel used on farms, or the electricity used to pump water for irrigation.</p>
<p>To see if there is economic value in converting corn to ethanol is easy. Just compare their prices.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>Comment on Pimental and Corn Ethanol Fuel by Paul Neilson</title>
		<link>http://ethanolfuel.wordpress.com/2008/04/25/pimental-and-corn-ethanol-fuel/#comment-2</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul Neilson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 May 2008 13:52:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ethanolfuel.wordpress.com/?p=3#comment-2</guid>
		<description>Hi Carl

  I have seen the conclusion of Pimental&#039;s paper printed so many times that it proves Barnum&#039;s Law.

  Any idea on the true BTU cost of a gallon of ethanol?  I have seen around 50,000 BTU&#039;s used or 25% net gain as well in many publications.

  Thanks</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Carl</p>
<p>  I have seen the conclusion of Pimental&#8217;s paper printed so many times that it proves Barnum&#8217;s Law.</p>
<p>  Any idea on the true BTU cost of a gallon of ethanol?  I have seen around 50,000 BTU&#8217;s used or 25% net gain as well in many publications.</p>
<p>  Thanks</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>Comment on Hello world! by Mr WordPress</title>
		<link>http://ethanolfuel.wordpress.com/2007/10/11/hello-world/#comment-1</link>
		<dc:creator>Mr WordPress</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Oct 2007 01:43:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-1</guid>
		<description>Hi, this is a comment.&lt;br /&gt;To delete a comment, just log in, and view the posts&#039; comments, there you will have the option to edit or delete them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi, this is a comment.<br />To delete a comment, just log in, and view the posts&#8217; comments, there you will have the option to edit or delete them.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>
